Web page menu -- first or last?

[Jake]

If I could take a few minutes of your time, I wonder if the
sight-impaired amongst you could comment on my thoughts regarding menu
and main content access on a Web page:

The conventional layout of a Web page has the menu appearing as the
first entry, with the main content following.

Perceived wisdom is that the first item on a page should, therefore, be
a 'skip to content' link so that frequent visitors can bypass the
repetitive menu system on each page, but can still quickly access the
menu when they want to by simply going to the beginning of the page
using, for example, the [Home] key.

One suggestion that is sometimes made is that the main content should be
placed first, followed by the menu. In this way there is no need for a
'skip' link at the beginning of the page -- although one thought is that
you now need a 'skip to navigation' link as the first page entry ;-)

If there is no link, then the user would presumably have to jump to the
end of the page and tab back through the links in the menu.

What would be your preference? Menu first -- or last -- on a page?

Or doesn't it really matter because that's not how you work anyway?
(e.g. use of 'list-of-links' for navigation)

And as a subsidiary question: how useful would it be to set up a jump to
menu or content via an Access Key?

Thanks

[Tiddy Ogg]

Post by Jake
If I could take a few minutes of your time, I wonder if the
sight-impaired amongst you could comment on my thoughts regarding menu

Everything you've said is valid. I would prefer the main content
first to save having to skip all the links. As you say, if there is a
link to do this, it ain't so bad, but many sites don't have this.
It's particularly frustrating when each page on a site requires much
manipulation to get to the meat.
So maybe a compromise - links first on the home page then at the end
subsequently.

Putrid poetry, dismal doggerel, extrava-stanzas...
http://www.tiddyogg.co.uk

[Chad Kelly]

Post by Jake
If I could take a few minutes of your time, I wonder if the
sight-impaired amongst you could comment on my thoughts regarding menu
The conventional layout of a Web page has the menu appearing as the
first entry, with the main content following.
Perceived wisdom is that the first item on a page should, therefore, be
a 'skip to content' link so that frequent visitors can bypass the
repetitive menu system on each page, but can still quickly access the
menu when they want to by simply going to the beginning of the page

Yeah. Skip content is a good menu set-up to use, I don't use it but
that's because my sites do not have very big menu systems.. But they
are usefull if you have a lot of content to scroll through. Maybe check
out
http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.www.webmaster/browse_thread/thread/ba07beef5a80c7a9/8579d324a18217e3?q=Skip+Content&rnum=1&hl=en#8579d324a18217e3
That should give you more info.
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc

Post by Jake
using, for example, the [Home] key.
One suggestion that is sometimes made is that the main content should be
placed first, followed by the menu. In this way there is no need for a
'skip' link at the beginning of the page -- although one thought is that
you now need a 'skip to navigation' link as the first page entry ;-)
If there is no link, then the user would presumably have to jump to the
end of the page and tab back through the links in the menu.
What would be your preference? Menu first -- or last -- on a page?
Or doesn't it really matter because that's not how you work anyway?
(e.g. use of 'list-of-links' for navigation)
And as a subsidiary question: how useful would it be to set up a jump to
menu or content via an Access Key?
Thanks
--

[Brian Gaff]

Well, I like the jump to content myself, as in the first instance, you will
want the menu anyway.

The sort of pages that annoy me are those which use frames or some other way
to make the text update, and leave the menu there, often using some form of
combo box which is active that draws the focus away every time you roll the
box.

Brian
--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: ***@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

If I could take a few minutes of your time, I wonder if the sight-impaired
amongst you could comment on my thoughts regarding menu and main content
The conventional layout of a Web page has the menu appearing as the first
entry, with the main content following.
Perceived wisdom is that the first item on a page should, therefore, be a
'skip to content' link so that frequent visitors can bypass the repetitive
menu system on each page, but can still quickly access the menu when they
want to by simply going to the beginning of the page using, for example,
the [Home] key.
One suggestion that is sometimes made is that the main content should be
placed first, followed by the menu. In this way there is no need for a
'skip' link at the beginning of the page -- although one thought is that
you now need a 'skip to navigation' link as the first page entry ;-)
If there is no link, then the user would presumably have to jump to the
end of the page and tab back through the links in the menu.
What would be your preference? Menu first -- or last -- on a page?
Or doesn't it really matter because that's not how you work anyway? (e.g.
use of 'list-of-links' for navigation)
And as a subsidiary question: how useful would it be to set up a jump to
menu or content via an Access Key?
Thanks
--

[Brian Gaff]

PS, does the html group you have crossposted to exist?

Brian
--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: ***@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

If I could take a few minutes of your time, I wonder if the sight-impaired
amongst you could comment on my thoughts regarding menu and main content
The conventional layout of a Web page has the menu appearing as the first
entry, with the main content following.
Perceived wisdom is that the first item on a page should, therefore, be a
'skip to content' link so that frequent visitors can bypass the repetitive
menu system on each page, but can still quickly access the menu when they
want to by simply going to the beginning of the page using, for example,
the [Home] key.
One suggestion that is sometimes made is that the main content should be
placed first, followed by the menu. In this way there is no need for a
'skip' link at the beginning of the page -- although one thought is that
you now need a 'skip to navigation' link as the first page entry ;-)
If there is no link, then the user would presumably have to jump to the
end of the page and tab back through the links in the menu.
What would be your preference? Menu first -- or last -- on a page?
Or doesn't it really matter because that's not how you work anyway? (e.g.
use of 'list-of-links' for navigation)
And as a subsidiary question: how useful would it be to set up a jump to
menu or content via an Access Key?
Thanks
--

[Jake]

Post by Brian Gaff
PS, does the html group you have crossposted to exist?
Brian

Yes -- although not very active.

If someone does post in the 'accessibility' groups, there's occasionally
a response or two.

Regards.

[Janner]

Post by Jake

Post by Brian Gaff
PS, does the html group you have crossposted to exist?
Brian

Yes -- although not very active.
If someone does post in the 'accessibility' groups, there's occasionally
a response or two.
Regards.

If you haven't already done so, you might want to check out the forum
over at www.accessifyforum.com.

Lots of people over there who are very well-informed on the issue of
designing accessible websites.

Janner

___

The VIP Consumer: consumer reviews and discussion from a visually impaired perspective.
www.vipconsumer.com

[Jake]

Post by Janner

Post by Jake

Post by Brian Gaff
PS, does the html group you have crossposted to exist?
Brian

Yes -- although not very active.
If someone does post in the 'accessibility' groups, there's occasionally
a response or two.
Regards.

If you haven't already done so, you might want to check out the forum
over at www.accessifyforum.com.
Lots of people over there who are very well-informed on the issue of
designing accessible websites.
Janner
___
The VIP Consumer: consumer reviews and discussion from a visually impaired perspective.
www.vipconsumer.com

Thanks. I'm familiar with that forum. My interest is really in what
people who need to use assistive technology think, rather than what
people who design the sites *think* they need.

Regards.

[William Tasso]

...
My interest is really in what people who need to use assistive
technology think, rather than what people who design the sites *think*
they need.

Thanks for posting, unfortunately replies from site builders are most
common. It would appear to a casual observer that those in need of
assistive technology are satisfied with the service they receive from web
sites in general.

Did you get sufficient replies elsewhere (I only subscribe to
alt.html.web-accessibility) to arrive at a conclusion?

[Jake]

Post by William Tasso

...
My interest is really in what people who need to use assistive
technology think, rather than what people who design the sites *think*
they need.

Thanks for posting, unfortunately replies from site builders are most
common. It would appear to a casual observer that those in need of
assistive technology are satisfied with the service they receive from
web sites in general.
Did you get sufficient replies elsewhere (I only subscribe to
alt.html.web-accessibility) to arrive at a conclusion?

You've seen all the replies ;-(

I guess I'll stick to 'perceived wisdom' ... i.e. a 'skip to main
content' link at the start of every page (if necessary).

Regards.

[William Tasso]

Post by Jake

Post by William Tasso
...
Did you get sufficient replies elsewhere (I only subscribe to
alt.html.web-accessibility) to arrive at a conclusion?

You've seen all the replies ;-(

That's quite disappointing really - the names of the groups chosen looked
quite promising.

There's an ocasional poster (trevor) over in news:alt.www.webmaster that
has employed a blind webmistress - however he posts erratically (in both
senses <g>)

Post by Jake
I guess I'll stick to 'perceived wisdom' ... i.e. a 'skip to main
content' link at the start of every page (if necessary).

likewise

[Janner]

Post by Jake

Post by William Tasso

...
My interest is really in what people who need to use assistive
technology think, rather than what people who design the sites *think*
they need.

Thanks for posting, unfortunately replies from site builders are most
common. It would appear to a casual observer that those in need of
assistive technology are satisfied with the service they receive from
web sites in general.
Did you get sufficient replies elsewhere (I only subscribe to
alt.html.web-accessibility) to arrive at a conclusion?

You've seen all the replies ;-(
I guess I'll stick to 'perceived wisdom' ... i.e. a 'skip to main
content' link at the start of every page (if necessary).
Regards.

Out of interest, is the site specifically for users of assistive
technology, is it likely to get a higher than usual level of visitors
who do use assistive technology, or is it just a 'regular' site that
you are trying to make as accessible as possible?

Speaking from my own perspective (as somebody who is legally blind,
but who doesn't use assistive technology), it generally doesn't matter
what accessibility 'features' a web designer adds to a site, as my
browser is already set to display websites exactly as I need them
(just so long as they keep away from Flash and other things which
won't display in my chosen color scheme!).

However, from the limited exposure that I have had to screenreaders, I
would say that the 'perceived wisdom' appears correct. A skip to
content link, structured semantic markup, and some Access Keys
'should' cover most needs. Although more 'can' be done to aid those
who are using assistive technology, the need to balance accessibility
against standards compliance, browser compatibility and ease of use
for regular site visitors is a difficult one.

Regards

Janner

___

The VIP Consumer: consumer reviews and discussion from a visually impaired perspective.
www.vipconsumer.com

[Pam]

Post by Jake
The conventional layout of a Web page has the menu appearing as the
first entry, with the main content following.
Perceived wisdom is that the first item on a page should, therefore, be
a 'skip to content' link so that frequent visitors can bypass the
repetitive menu system on each page, but can still quickly access the
menu when they want to by simply going to the beginning of the page
using, for example, the [Home] key.
One suggestion that is sometimes made is that the main content should be
placed first, followed by the menu. In this way there is no need for a
'skip' link at the beginning of the page -- although one thought is that
you now need a 'skip to navigation' link as the first page entry ;-)
If there is no link, then the user would presumably have to jump to the
end of the page and tab back through the links in the menu.
What would be your preference? Menu first -- or last -- on a page?
Or doesn't it really matter because that's not how you work anyway?
(e.g. use of 'list-of-links' for navigation)
And as a subsidiary question: how useful would it be to set up a jump to
menu or content via an Access Key?
Thanks
--

Hi Jake,

I'm a designer/developer at a university and have been doing some
extensive research over the past year. Although I'm not
visually-impaired myself, I've been working with a few people to try
and gather data regarding the use of assistive technology. Bob Easton
has been gathering some data regarding how screen readers actually
handle the markup of different accessibility practices and techniques.
(http://www.access-matters.com/)

Regarding content first versus menu first, it seems that most screen
readers read through the document in the order of the markup on the
page. This means if you would like your content to be read first, you
can put your menu after the content. Even if the menu appears top left
or top right through the use of CSS, most screen readers will read the
content first because it appears first in the markup.

If you organize the information into a few paragraphs with descriptive
titles (marked up as headers) for each section, most screen readers
will allow the screen reader user to view the list of headings on the
page and navigate to the one he or she is interested in. Users that
navigate in this way may not have use for the skip link if the menu is
before the content. However, users that allow the screen reader to
start reading from the top, can activate the skip link as it is being
read.

I used to believe that the skip menu link was for users specifically
using screen readers and would hide them off-screen using CSS (so
screen readers would read them) until a friend asked me why I was
hiding them. He commented that many people find them ugly and hide them
but, in fact, people with mobility problems are the ones that truly
benefit from them. My comment to him was, "Nothing that is truly useful
is ugly." and I stopped hiding them.

Other people that will benefit from the skip link are people that may
view your site on a smaller screen. I've been hearing a lot of feedback
from mobile users that appreciate a submenu of headings on a rather
lengthy page with "back to headings menu" links after each section
because scrolling is problematic on mobile devices.

Pam

[Dana]

I sure wish when they design web pages they would set them up exactly just
like you described.

If I could take a few minutes of your time, I wonder if the sight-impaired
amongst you could comment on my thoughts regarding menu and main content
The conventional layout of a Web page has the menu appearing as the first
entry, with the main content following.
Perceived wisdom is that the first item on a page should, therefore, be a
'skip to content' link so that frequent visitors can bypass the repetitive
menu system on each page, but can still quickly access the menu when they
want to by simply going to the beginning of the page using, for example, the
[Home] key.
One suggestion that is sometimes made is that the main content should be
placed first, followed by the menu. In this way there is no need for a 'skip'
link at the beginning of the page -- although one thought is that you now
need a 'skip to navigation' link as the first page entry ;-)
If there is no link, then the user would presumably have to jump to the end
of the page and tab back through the links in the menu.
What would be your preference? Menu first -- or last -- on a page?
Or doesn't it really matter because that's not how you work anyway? (e.g. use
of 'list-of-links' for navigation)
And as a subsidiary question: how useful would it be to set up a jump to menu
or content via an Access Key?
Thanks
--

[Johnny Winther Ronnenberg]

Post by Dana
I sure wish when they design web pages they would set them up exactly
just like you described.

This I do not understand, menu first or what?

Best regards
Johnny Winther Ronnenberg